Line to lillian connection knots - materials & Japanese names

Rods
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From time to time on forums someone will ask for a recommendation for what type of line to use to make the connection loop for attaching a homemade taper line to the lillian.

Tapered line attachment loop:
This type of girth hitch knot I usually see called a chichiwa knot in Japanese. [ チチワ結び ].

Usually I recommend some kind of thin diameter braided fishing line. Today by chance I noticed Fujinoline sells a line dedicated for making the chichiwa loop. That Fujinoline calls - テンカラ専用取りつけ糸, [tenkara sen’yō toritsuke-ito], tenkara dedicated mounting/attaching thread (ito).

https://www.fujinoline.co.jp/archives/3606.html

This line is described as being made from “polyarylate” [ 素材：ポリアリレート ].
Commercial grades of polyarylate fiber are available under the trade names : Vectran, Vectra, and Zenite LCP (liquid crystal polymers).

Many of these types of lines can be found at tackle shops. These fibers are called self lubricating. Probably desirable property on a reel, but for taper line use I’ve found that a line that isn’t slick holds better.

http://polymerdatabase.com/polymer%20classes/Polyarylate%20type.html

The level line sliding loop knot:
We are all familiar with various ways of tying this knot. As long as I have been doing tenkara, I don’t think I have noticed before the common Japanese name for this knot. Though the name has been there in plain sight.

I see two names, that are essentially the same, only a slight variation in one name.
投げな結び [ nagena musubi] Throwing knot. nagena knot. :wink:
投げ縄結び [ nage nawa musubi ] Lasso or literal translation - throwing rope knot.

The second name is right there in the title of this Honda video:
基本の結び方 CHAPTER 2 投げ縄結び - tying basics Chapter 2 nage nawa musubi
Which is my preferred way of tying this knot. The extra stop knot helps prevent the knot pulling out or becoming jammed.

You can find variations with an internet search for 投げ結びとは. what is throwing knot.
The “to ha”, (とは) suffix bit - is a short hand way of asking " (subject) what is".
チチワ結びとは - what is chichiwa knot.
テンカラロッドの穂先糸結びとは - what is tenkara rod tip ito knot.
ドライフライテンカラとは - what is dry fly tenkara
水面直下をテンカラ釣りとは - what is under water surface tenkara fishing
and so on.

Many methods and knot names can be found here:
釣り初心者向け 糸の結び方（総合） For fishing beginners ito knot how-to (general)
釣り初心者向け 糸の結び方（総合）

チチワ結びの場合 - in case of chichiwa knot
投げな結びの場合 - in case of throwing knot

Just a bit of name doodling. :joy:

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Somewhat related to this and something I’ve occasionally wondered about; do people tie a knot in their lillian or not?

Personally, I do not do that. I loop it through twice and cinch it tight. Maybe it’s my personal perception, but it’s much easier and quicker to take my rod apart for drying and cleaning without the knot.

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No lillian knot here

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I don’t put a knot in mine. I wouldn’t want to untie it later on to dry the rod out. There has been a couple of times where I was in a hurry and then lost the while level line because I didn’t get a good loop knot.

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I think I have knots at end of the lillian on all of my earlier purchased rods. That was the recommendation in early days, and when starting tenkara my casting skills were not great and I mostly used furled lines, easier to cast, with the loop attachment.

Mostly I do not put knots in the lillian on my newer rods.
I mostly fish level lines. And a lillian knot is not needed with that type of connection. But sometimes fish with the tapered nylon lines from Fujinoline or TUSA, which uses the same type of loop girth hitch connection to the lillian as used with furled lines, where I guess a lillian knot would be the standard recommendation.

If the rod has a longer lillian, I just loop it through twice and it holds fine. Or with even longer lillians and same type of line loop, I have found I can tie a knot similar to a sheet bend that also holds securely. (bend knots are knots for joining two lines together). But if using that type of connection with a short lillian I will tie a knot in the end to make it more a more secure connection.

As mentioned before, the lillian on my Daiwa 36 LL rod is very short & thick. I don’t think it is long enough to tie a knot in it if I wanted to. But it isn’t needed with the standard level line connection.

I have one rod, Nissin Air Stage, I think, that has a very thin and long lillian. Initially I had a knot in the lillian. But I found I often had trouble extending the rod. Section 2 is longer than section one. The lillian was so thin that even with a knot in the end, the lillian knot would be pulled inside of section 2 when the rod was collapsed. The knot had just enough friction with the inner wall of section 2 - that section 1 would not easily come out once it was pulled inside. After trying various schemes to keep the knot from pulling inside section 2, I took the common sense solution and took the knot out of the end of the lillian.

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D, I have gone through a similar transition of Lilian to line junctures as you have. Although it is not 100% effective in all cases in keeping the Lilian from descending down into the second rod section, tying a double over hand knot at the end of the Lilian will pretty much eliminate that problem. In addition, should you ever need to Un-tie the Lilian stopper knot, it is a lot easier to untie a double overhand knot than it is with a single overhand knot.

What I came to dislike about using a slip-nose knot at the rod end of level lines is how, over time the line became kinked up, requiring trimming to get to fresh, strait line again. Although the loss of line length is not all that great, using the Girth-Hitch Loop Lilian attachment method completely eliminates that problem. I do not use line spools, preferring to coil my lines and carry them in Zip-Lock Bag Leader Books, with a divider and labeling so two lines can be carried in each bag as it is a more compact method of line management than multiple spools would be on stream, with less line memory as well…Karl.

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I know this topic is older, but here goes. I untied the stopper knot from both of my lillians and was going to go without, but felt I was putting too much pressure on the lillian trying to get the line cinched down tight.

I was holding the tip section inside of the rod using my ring finger to capture the lillian, then using the thumb and index fingers to hold the lillian and pull the girth hitch tight. I could under my ring finger feel the pressure that this was putting on the lillian.

I put the stopper knots back in my lillians and don’t think I’ll remove them again. The tip section is the Achilles heel in this style of fishing and I’m far too hard on my gear to let something like this cost me a rod tip.

I get the drawback of doing this as it relates to cleaning and drying, but I’m not sure if completely take that section apart. As I said, I’m not the most gentle beast when it comes to my gear.

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Thanks for sharing @arrowrand. It’s all a personal choice, with many factors that play into things. I’m glad to hear you’ve figured out what works for you.

By the way, it’s great when people continue with old threads/conversations instead of just starting new ones that repeat things. Thanks for digging this one back up!

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And then tonight I couldn’t get my tip section extended because it got stuck due to my loose lillian knot.

I disassembled the rod, removed the lillian knot and did three turns of the lillian through my girth hitch loop. 24 mid to large sized bluegill later I’m a convert. I settled on a method that has me putting almost no pressure on the lillian to pull it tight.

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On most Tenkara rods the tip section is solid graphite, hence not subject to much water retention. So I do not believe it is as necessary to be able to completely dry the whole tip section as it would be necessary with a Hollow Tipped Rod. But your millage May very on that as where I live we have a very hot, dry climate. In humid climates, completely drying a T-rod would be much more important, I believe.

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Same here